Finally, an opportunity to make a difference about the criticisms that downtown is all bars. Monday night a report by our administration goes to council and if we speak up we can make positive change and ask that bars not be allowed to operate between 3 and 5 am. We can put an end to destructive after hours bars like they did in Kitchener. Anyone who truly wants to make changes should register to speak at city council on Monday night or express your opinion to your councillor. Your councillors will listen if they see you thereI have been calling for an end to after hour’s bars and massage parlours to be zoned out of downtown for years. Our licensing department and our city leaders have not thought to date that these changes are warranted. Below is a letter that details the complaints about lack of transparency and being shut out of the process that Larry Horwitz and I faced when we tried to lobby for these changes. We were denied the input into this report that we were promised and we were individually told to leave the meeting. A meeting where the licencing committee comprised of Councillor Ron Jones and Jo anne Gignac became party to this flawed report.
First, we hear that downtown is dangerous, that is not the whole truth. The whole truth is that when we read and hear about shootings and knifings over 90% take place after 3am. The whole truth is that two of these shootings happened outside the same after hours club on the corner of Pelissier and Wyandotte. I am absolutely dumbfounded that the police have not called for these establishments to be closed down. We all know that policing costs are high downtown and this is one way to reduce them. If you claim to care about high taxes then here is another way to control city costs. I respectfully question the reasoning behind our police’s silence over this issue and whether there has been pressure to not rock the boat.
Secondly, if you want to lure retail downtown you need a buffer between the day time and a night time clientele. The term mixed use is not proper to describe the relationship between nightclubs, retail and office. The uses simply don’t mix. The more proper term would be “split use” and to make an effective “split use” district you need a buffer between the nightclubs and the retail/office. That buffer is needed for the Entertainment lounge owners to clean up before the retail/office opens.
There are many other reasons in addition to this that after hours clubs should be restricted, I’m sure many of you have your own valid reasons as well. You want to attract residents to downtown; these clubs are also an obstacle of that goal.
Now, other than the proprietors themselves, most people in the city will agree with me about after hours clubs. Where I disagree with many is the need to curtail the nightclub industry. We don’t need to stop them we need to manage them responsibly. That can be done by supporting the Hospitality Resource Panel that is inching its way forwards. More can be learned about this at www.responsiblehrp.org
The only controversy here is whether to close places that provide food between 3 and 5am. If you ask the president of the Responsible Hospitality Institute he will say that these places create lineups made up of intoxicated people put in closed quarters. Thats a fight waiting to happen. The Responsible Hospitality Institute advocates for practices that allow patrons to leave downtown in an orderly manner. It is a fallacious argument to think that if a drunk person has something to eat before he drives home he somehow becomes safer. Food doesn't sober you up, it only slows down how quickly alcohol enters the blood. It will not make a person that is over the legal limit go under. Even if you disagree with this point call your councillor and ask them to close entertainment lounges, public halls between 3 and 5am
It also is the source of much of downtowns garbage. Other cities like Kitchener have done that and zoned any new massage parlours out of downtown. When asked how they got the existing ones to move out of downtown they simply responded, we told them to go that they were not wanted downtown. action can happen if the citizens of our city demand it. Please register to speak or show your support Monday Night at council, write, email or call your councillor. This is the type of positive change that we can make that I’ve been talking about. Here’s a chance for the naysayer to put their money where their mouths are.
Below are excerpts from Kitchener's municipal code which prevent after hour bars to open. After that is a description of how our city's administration is behaving on this issue. P.S. this will only be announced on Friday which gives the public virtually no notice or time to prepare. If it moves from Monday, I would question whether this post which I am making very public has caused a change that results in no public debate on the issue.
Public Hall
583.1.1 Public hall - defined
“public hall” means a building, including a portable building or tent with a seating capacity for over 100 persons that is offered for use or used as a place of public assembly, but does not include a theatre within the meaning of the Theatres Act, or a building, except a tent, used solely for religious purposes.
583.2.6 Operation - hours prohibited
No person shall operate a public hall between the hours of 3 a.m. and 5 a.m. each day except the first day of January in each year.
583.3.1 Fine - for contravention - person
Every person other than a corporationwho contravenes any provision of this Chapter and every director or officer of a corporation who concurs in such contravention by the corporation is guilty of an offence and is liable, upon conviction, to a fine not exceeding Twenty-Five Thousand Dollars ($25,000).
583.3.2 Fine - for contravention - corporation
Every corporation that contravenes any provision of this Chapter is guilty of an offence and is liable, upon conviction, to a fine not exceeding Fifty Thousand Dollars ($50,000)
Place of refreshment
584.1.2 Place of refreshment - defined
“place of refreshment” includes a restaurant, ice cream parlour, dairy bar, tea room, sandwich shop, lunch counter, hot dog and hamburger stand, peanut stand, fish and chip shop, refreshment booth, refreshment stand and a place where refreshments are sold from a vendingmachine, but does not include a refreshment vehicle
584.2.7 Class A licence - hours of operation
Every premises for which a ClassAplace of refreshment licence has been issued under this Chapter shall be closed between the hours of 3 a.m. and 5 a.m. each day except the first day of January in each year.
584.3.1 Fine - for contravention - person
Every person who contravenes any provision of this Chapter and every director or officer of a corporation who concurs in such contravention by the corporation is guilty of an offence and is liable, upon conviction, to a fine not exceeding Twenty-Five Thousand Dollars ($25,000).
584.3.2 Fine - for contravention - corporation
Notwithstanding Section 584.3.1, every corporation that contravenes any provision of this Chapter is guilty of an offence and is liable, upon conviction, to a fine not exceeding Fifty Thousand Dollars ($50,000).
Good Morning Councillors:
I have reviewed the Council Report 13049 regarding After Hours Clubs. As this is a “Note and File” recommendation, we were informed by the City Clerk’s Office that delegations will not be heard on the issue.
As such, the DWBIA requests that Council direct Administration to work closely with the DWBIA in researching this issue and that the DWBIA be included in the discussion from the beginning through to the end of the study.
As an FYI – the Licensing Commission met on October 9th, 2007. I was informed by a person in the Licensing Department that this meeting was open to the public, however when two of my Board Members tried to enter the meeting, they were told to leave. I was assured by Licensing that we would be involved in this process, yet this Council Report has come forward without consultation with the DWBIA.
Judith C. Veresuk
Executive Director
Downtown Windsor Business Improvement
ED: The Windsor Star doing it's part at publicizing this issue today (Friday, Dec 7)
13 comments:
Do you have a link to the report or a copy you can email me. I looked on the Council Agenda page and couldn't find it.
Also if you are in support of the bars staying open you are also welcome to come and give council your opinion.
i had to chuckle when immediately after reading this post, I find on the CBC News site this article:
Quebec bar owners are lobbying the province to extend business hours until 6 a.m. to help reduce drunk driving and avoid end-of-the-night brawls.
My personal opinion was always that instead of just throwing everyone out on the streets all at once, extended hours (not for drinking, just for hours of operation) would enable people to leave gradually and curb the nonsense that happens in the street. Less people in the streets all at once would generally mean less incidents and less noise. I mean, it would lead to a set of double standard if you allow the patrons inside the casino after they are done serving alcohol but refuse that right to stay open for the small business owner?
It would also add to experience for visitors to the area if they are able to have fun 24/7 in Windsor, wouldn't they want to come back?
Now don't get me wrong, I understand Mark has a very well established track record with his establishments downtown and knows what he is talking about, but usually there is more than one solution to a problem.
Beyond the implecations of this decision, we must examine why delegrations are (allegedly) being refused on this topic. When I voted for councillors and a mayor I didn't expect for them to truncate my opinion but rather act as a voice for my opinion. We need to ensure that, in spite position taken by administration, we are heard, as the voting public, on this issue.
As for the finer details -- wow, no idea. I don't drink, at all, so I am not very sympathetic to those establishments or to the purpose for their existance. That being said, if the choice is manage or not manage, I say manage them and manage them well.
I can't find the report either, I based my post from Floriday talking to Larry who has a copy in his hands.
The report gives options but its a note and file. I simply do not get the fact that there is no public input on this other than the closed licencing committee meeting.
AC - Staggered closings have been proven to work in other cities. I have no problem if we did that between 3-4
However look a look at the DWBIA camera's on Pelissier will enlighten you about the goings on between 3 - 6 on pelissier and wyandotte
Look I'm not anti drinking/partying etc...
You have several problems in downtown, you have the police saying there are additional costs to police downtown. Well guess what the true definition of community policing is NOT the community telling the police to do its job. Its the community taking away problems that have to be policed. Its the community making changes that assist the police to do their job.
You say you want lower taxes, well then you have to get police costs in control
You say you want retail and residents downtown, then you need a buffer between them and the bars. Especially on Pelissier.
Look, if nightclubs in the Properly zoned entertainment lounge
boudaries on Ouellette could be exempted then I'd say yes. We're talking about clubs that are physically next to apartment bldgs on Pelissier
I am absolutely flabbergasted at the mayor's comments
"Mayor Eddie Francis said regulating the clubs would mean additional costs for bylaw enforcement officers. Bylaw officers would check clubs for such things as liquor consumption, overcrowding and noise.
Francis said it was too early to decide whether a mandatory closing time should be introduced.
“Council will have a discussion (Monday) and have to look at the information and what steps are already being taken,” the mayor said. “Right now, it isn’t much of a problem — not that it can’t be if you get a row of (after-hours clubs).”
People need to see the video taken at wyandotte and Pelissier after 3am on a saturday night.
I would question the rational behind leaving these clubs unregulating saving money on bylaw officers. I'd rather pay a bylaw officer to ensure they close than a multiple police officers to police them
I agree 100% Mark. I do understand why you would want to close food establishments due to the potential fights so yes close them. But then why did the DWBIA run the hotdog vendors out of town? They can fill that niche without the headaches of a food establishment. Also, they provide a charm downtown that is sorely lacking.
See, I can be happy.
I agree about the massage parlours. How do we pressure city hall to have them removed from the area?
Mark, would one of the news shows run your video?
These after-hours clubs may not be great, and attract the best people -- but there are rules in place to manage them, so as somebody said, manage them well.
Closing them down will simply drive the speak easy's underground, where they will be harder to monitor. This is what has always happened. There will always be a population who wants to be out till dawn -- might as well know where they are.
Plus, 24hour life is part of what living in a big city is all about.
No, the boom boom room is managed well but that is all
After a lot of feedback I think there is room for a compromise that can be a solution for all
We Definitely need a buffer between residents and nightlife, but it can be space as well as time.
THe idea of a staggered closing has been proven successful in many other cities. I think Guelph does it.
I say close Pelissier at 3am and Ouellette later. Pelissier is not zoned for entertainment lounges and after hours clubs are definitely NOT appropriate for them
I have a big issue with the video. According to our privacy policy, they can't be shown. However I take issue with the mayor saying after hours clubs not a problem while knowing about the existence of these videos
I would issue a caution. If the police or mayor say there is no problem, I will find a way to show these video's. Even if I have to take my own video and post it on youtube.
I've been on the corner of Pelissier and Wyandotte and watch 2Police suburbans and a number of police have to spend their shifts monitoring the large, violent crowds when fights break out. I've seen these patrons disrespect and take swings at our police.
How can the police and mayor claim they want to make a priority of fighting drugs while ignoring massage and after hour clubs?
These after-hours clubs may not be great, and attract the best people -- but there are rules in place to manage them, so as somebody said, manage them well.
Closing them down will simply drive the speak easy's underground, where they will be harder to monitor. This is what has always happened. There will always be a population who wants to be out till dawn -- might as well know where they are.
Plus, 24hour life is part of what living in a big city is all about.
some people may say this is a stretch, but wouldn't it be a double standard to shut down these establishments yet keep the casino open after hours? i mean, the casino sells alcohol as well.
proper and proactive management is the key to solving these problems as well as shutting down troublesome establishments. as for staggered closing times, wouldn't the people leaving those establishments just shift over to the ones that are open?
i have no doubt that particular section of pelissier is bad. i avoid it altogether because i feel unsafe in that particular part.
proper management is key. mark even mentioned himself that the boom boom room is run very well and i don't recall many incidents occurring with them. its time to make these owners/managers accountable for the actions of their patrons. maybe once you start hitting their pocket books will they start to listen. also, if the bar can be held accountable for drinking and driving, why not for assault or dare i say murder?
Ac, you are correct when it applies to nightclubs but you have not addressed the issue of creating a buffer between the residents and daytime businesses
I still like my compromised position. 3 am closure outside of the area zoned for entertainment lounges and later for those within
You are right about proper management being the key.
Staggered closing is the way you properly manage.
Just to keep people updated...
Dec 22, 2007
A shooting in downtown Windsor. Around 4:30 this morning, a man was shot while standing on Pelissier just north of Wyandotte Street. The victim has been taken to hospital and victim services has been called in to speak with family members. A large portion of the downtown core has been closed off for an investigation. Windsor police have no one in custody and no description of any possible suspects.
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