The 60s were magical. It was an era of raucous music and social rebellion that culminated in a revolution of peace and prosperity with politicians and rabble-rousers united in a fight against foreign wars, racism and disparaging wealth distribution. JFK, Martin Luther King and Che Guevara, among others, fought the status quo, challenged the oligarchy and, in the end, were martyred for the transgression of free throught and positve action. In spite of the sacrifice made by these leaders, and countless others on the local and national level, the past quarter century has nearly erased the effects of their profound leadership. Their message of hope for positive change raised a generation of free-thinkers who, on the death of their mentors, were summarily homogenized by the collective gluttony of consumerism, leaving the current generation asking "Where have all the leaders gone?"
As consumerism is down-graded from a national past time to simple survival by a stumbling economy, generations are looking for someone to lead them to the promised land; a proverbial Moses. Our distributed and digital jungle has, for the past decade, prevented us from seeing the changes that were transforming the world around us. Lost in an all-consuming world of web-links, iPods and digital television, finding leaders, and helping them find themselves, requires a unique blend of entrepreneurship and mountain-top guru with a dash of Indiana Jones.
Dr. Karen Stephenson, who was interviewed recently on Smart City Radio, is the founder of Netform.com. A corporate anthropologist, she specializes in helping companies discover and strengthen hidden leaders while advocating for the need to identify and capitalize on the knowledge of the human network. In October 2006 LEADERSHIP Philadelphia released a list of 101 leaders as analyzed and identified by Dr. Stephenson and her team. Over 4800 candidates were identified as possible leaders within the community and, through an online survey, were analyzed to determine their focus on the common good and their ability to be connectors.
Through this process of leadership identification and intensification, strengthening of civic connections, and developing symbiotic relationships, Philadelphia realized that it had the citizen strength to build a better city. (ED: Philly’s idea of ‘better’ and ScaleDown’s idea of better may differ, but the process for leadership identification is still the same.) Chris Satullo, a Philadelphia Inquirer columnist, refered to Philadelphia’s leadership, pre-Stephenson identification, as embattled or indicted in an Oct 15, 2006 article. Any casual observer of Windsor city council will agree with the embattled leadership title, which begs the question – Does Windsor have 101 hidden leaders and can we harness these community leaders to create a more livable, sustainable, attractive city? (Hint: Here is the list of connector qualifications)
While we don’t have the sophisticated software or technical expertise of Dr. Stephenson, we, at ScaleDown.ca, want to know who are the hidden leaders in our city. Post a comment and let us know who you are nominating and why. While you are at it, drop your nominee a note and let them know that we’re looking for them, we want them and we need them as we work together to build a socially, economically and environmentally sustainable Windsor.
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21 comments:
Yes! Where have all the leaders gone...a good blog with links that I will have to read in depth later and good idea to seek out others who may want to step up for this city.
Let me point you to a more local resource that is easily accessible from any computer with an internet connection. You will need a valid Windsor Public Library card and personal identification number (PIN aka password) to access an on-line database that I will point you to. Don't a card or a PIN number then please visit any one of WPL's libraries, they're free if you live in Windsor.
Talking of leadership in this city a columnist named George Cuff who writes for the Canadian magazine "Municipal World," has 39 articles on municipal governance and how it should be conducted. It was Alan Halberstadt's blog that lead me to read more of Cuff's articles on municipal governance when he sited the ten rules/reasons on how city councillors are to govern.
Cuff in his articles has a clear sense of what elected officials should do and not do from the mayor on down. The latest article is very interesting: "When mayors and chaos clash." January 2008, Vol 118, Iss. 1.
Windsor Public Library doesn't have a physical copy of this magazine, Municipal World but I will show you were you can access it on-line.
Go to Windsor Public Libraries home page:
http://www.windsorpubliclibrary.com
On the home page you will see an orange bar across the top, look for the words Info Desk, a list will drop down, look for Researching with Databases click on that link. This page will open:
http://www.windsorpubliclibrary.com/informationdesk/databases.php
Look for the database CBCA Complete, when you click on the link you will be prompted for your user ID..a WPL library card and PIN number as stated above. When that is done a CBCA search page will open up. In the search box type in the name of the columnist George Cuff then click search.
All of Cuff's articles will appear in full text..Happy Reading.
Alan Halberstadt, Larry Horwitz, Mark Boscariol, Jack Renner. These are but a few names that cmoe up as potential leaders inthis city. Some work behind the scenes to accomplish things some have done extraordinary work in the past and some are working for and with us today.
Josh, as for the '60s being so great (other than civil rights)...well that is in the eye of the beholder as is JFK and Che Guevera.
I have met Alan, would like to talk with Larry, haven't met Mark yet but I have known Jack Renner off and on since the 70's when he first tried to develop the area just east of the Urban Village, good to hear that he is still hanging in..much needed.
In my earlier post I pointed you to a resource and a specific writer, here is a paragraph from that most recent article, When Mayors and chaos clash, because of copyright I can't post the whole article.
"Unleashed Egos
On the other hand, some communities have fallen prey to unleashed egos, who focus not on what is right with their new organization, but what might be less than expected. Such mayors quickly determine who is on their team and who is likely to be on the sidelines or ineffectual in their present roles. Rather than attempt any process of teambuilding, they act. Two walking egos is one too many, and rather than the new team taking the hit, the head of the internal team will fit nicely on the platter. The fact that there will be considerable expense incurred is not often considered, and the fact that the community's prestige as an employer suffers is also considered a minor cost of doing business. The results are seldom pretty."
Enjoy!
I would like to come up with some names of some younger leadership hopefulls and shine some light on what they have done and what they can do. Like Adriano Ciotoli from WindsorEats. He continually impresses me with his accomplishments to date, his optimism, drive, passion for this city and our independent businesspeople coupled with his progressive vision for what we can become.
Not trying to say that the previous suggestions aren't warranted, but we need to infuse our future with some youthful thinking that can augment the ability to get things accomplished that these seasoned players have at their disposal.
Well Chris, we can stat with people such as yourself and Chris Schnurr. Though they haven't accomplished tangible results, they are still spreading the other side of the news and asking the hard questions. By giving a different viewpoint they also give a better understanding of the issues at hand.
Urbanrat, interesting to see that Jack was 27 years ahead of his time. He wanted to make an urban village then but was rebuffed by the city even 27 years ago! He has passed that torch onto me. Now we are at square one once again.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Leadership,
Over the Past Couple of years I have faced many challenges pertaining to youth and leadership. Being a young, political, civil rights oriented activist, I found it very challenging to incorporate the old with the new. Our world is missing one thing, and that is role models that people believe and support. Youth must be empowered, and represent the hope and aspirations of generations to come. This can only be done, by taking bold steps and electing young and ambitious leaders to elected office. This helps set in example, and allows for a more diverse and welcome debate to issues facing communities around the world. Youth must be ready to take over, sooner rather then later. We can not expect our future leaders to be ready in to time to deal with the emerging “senior years” in Canada. Baby boomers are set to retire, and if our youth aren’t ready to take charge, then who will be? Leadership represents the hopes and inspirations of others. True leaders are life long students, aren’t afraid to ask questions, and are ready to listen. I hope I can fill the daunting task ahead, but with a powerful united message, Its is our Dreams that will lead the way!
Edy Haddad
I was first alerted to Edy Haddad during the council debate on the after hours club. While he and I didn't see eye-to-eye on that issue (his argument was well thought out and well articulated, though) he impressed me with his ability to stand up to council (a VERY nerve-wracking experience if you've never done that before) and lay out how he believes in such an elegant and thoughtful way.
This is a man to watch in the future as we're looking for people to take the lead in this city.
Thank you very much for the mention Chris! It is a privilege to be mentioned, however, I cannot take all of the credit for what WindsorEats is accomplishing. My sister, Pina, also plays a very important role in WindsorEats’ vision. All that WindsorEats has accomplished to date has been through an endless amount of hard work from the two of us. A lot of credit also goes to the local restaurateurs who see our vision and put their trust in us.
Dining at local establishments instead of national chains really can go a long way in helping boost the local economy. Spending local keeps the money local.
I believe we are going to see a lot of younger people coming to the forefron.t The Status quo cannot be maintained even if Eddie has soured the people's idea of a young elected official.
I wish I was more involved in politics (instead of being more aof a sideline person, but watching with a critical eye nonetheless) when I was in my late teens and early twentys. Now being thirty-four, I know I either have to put my vision forward or risk being left behind. I don't like being left behind!
I am also teaching my daughter to stand up proud for herself and her ideas. She along with numerous frineds have shown interest in living downtown (when they get a bit older) and also in thinking outside the box. I for one, will not allow our city hall nor anyone else to smother the flames that these bright, future leaders of ours have shown.
We need to teach them to stand up and to not cower when faced with adversity. Something our "educational" system continues to preach. Not everyone is special, and not everyone's ideas are great. Welcome to the real world.
I cannot beleive you mention a murdering scumbag like Guevara in the same sentence as MLK? This is a man who felt that lawyers and due process were a 'borgeois indulgence'.
"I ended the problem with a .32 caliber pistol, in the right side of his brain.... His belongings were now mine." -Che
Ya great leader. I dont know why you focused on the 60s. The 40s and 50s had great leaders too, Mao, Stalin, Hitler all great leaders
Thanks Chris!
That was my first time speaking before council, and my nerves did get a hold of me a bit.
Leadership is standing up for what you believe in. Leadership requires the will to listen to others, to understand the problems affecting people’s daily lives, and most of all find ways of cooperating with others. Young leaders today are facing an institutionalized black list of youth. They are told to wait, to grow old, then get active, or as many others like to call… join the herd.. Become sheep, and fallow the pack.
We need shepherds; we need people to lead the flock into new and prosperous pastures. Youth must not wait for change to occur, but actively pursue ways of delivering the goals set forward by our leaders of the past. Martin Luther King exclaimed “I have a dream”, it was his dream that inspired a generation to stand up for freedom, to lead holding hands singing, that a brighter day was here. Unfortunately they were muzzled, our leaders were murdered, but they had won a great battle, but the war is not over.
Let freedom Reign, Its time we LET IT POUR!! It time it floods our vary core, and delivers change. We must not as a people wait for change to occur, but make it your duty, no more must you be blinded by the lies and deceit of modern day politics. We must elect the leaders that believe change, is not an idea, but a movement of people. Demanding an end to poverty, to institutionalized racism, to stop the wars that feed the demon we call hate. We must elect leaders that believe in the economic prosperity of citizens.
Where are our modern day civil rights leaders?
I have bled for freedom, I have witnessed war, I have been discriminated, hated, spit on, laughed at, and most all looked down upon. I have lived on streets and have lived a life that I wouldn’t even wish upon my worst enemy, but through the trials and tribulations I have gone through, I have never stopped to dream, and to hope for a brighter day.
My goal is to be that leader. My goal, is to cross cultural, religious, ethnic, and generational lines, and deliver that the dream of my role model MLK.
Peace, Love, Hope, Change, Unity… five words that have inspired many to act, but so few have dared to listen. I will never stop the good fight of freedom, for we still see blood on the walls, and people dying around the world for the right to be free.
Is it not our Duty, as citizens with endless opportunity, to fight for the ones with no more energy to go on?
Civil rights leaders face death as a reality, for evil exist in our world. To be a civil rights leader has meant 2 things, the threat of murder, and the hopes and dreams of the world on your vary shoulder.
Over the Summer I received threats by Hezzeballah, a terrorist group based in southern Lebanon.
Did I fear.. No..
I refuse to be scared, for I rather die fighting for what is right, then live and do nothing. Democracy is the tool that we have, to push the leaders that represent us into power.
I am tired of Political Lawyers, and Political Business men telling me, that they know what is best…
Obviously they don’t… They never have… …
Its time we take charge..
Vote EH!
Edy Haddad
Val, many, if not all, of the historically popular leaders where polarizing in their views and actions. Even one of my personal favourites, Mahatma Ghandi, failed the litmus test of leadership without personal controversy. Che made the list (which was more a matter of which names came to my mind, rather than anything scientific) because his image as a revolutionary that persists through into our generation. I am sure that a detailed review of the lives of history's "greatest" leaders would produce provocative tales, deceitful deeds and nefarious relationships that would rival the Bush-Cheney administration! :)
The summary of a great leader, based on the comments given thus far, were best stated by Ghandi - "We must become the change we want to see in the world." So many of us want to see change happen, but are too afraid to make those changes a reality in our own lives. Leaders make those changes, in spite of the world around them, for the world around them and, above all, to change the world around them. Let that be the litmus test for our future leaders!
"Demanding an end to poverty, to institutionalized racism, to stop the wars that feed the demon we call hate. We must elect leaders that believe in the economic prosperity of citizens." This is a very impassioned, but largely repetitive political discussion. It's unwise to treat the economy as an afterthought. Strong economies reduce poverty. Strong economies yield more taxes. A leader's effectiveness is always measured by the strength of his or her economy (think Mayor Francis and Bob Rae). I don't think leaders should strive to compensate for laziness through government programs; in this regard, I adhere to Darwin's theory of "natural selection". Let's not forget that the mandate of the University of Windsor and countless other post-secondary institutions is to indoctrinate young people to believe that social justice trumps everything. What about inventors? Accountants? Engineers? MEDICAL doctors (not "corporate anthropologists")? Leaders who espouse the virtues of social justice will always have supporters. But what about unfunded pension liabilities? What about the quality of elder care? What about the costs of living? Such issues are social justice issues AND economic issues, issues that must be sufficiently addressed sooner or later. Regardless, populist politics have poisoned democracy. The electorate complains about broken promises then elects people who employ populist politics (DALTON!).
Windsor is home to many capable leaders. Why is the current administration dismissing them? ScaleDown, you know Windsor doesn't change very well. It's no secret that the majority of Windsorites aged 18-30 don't vote (reference any data from recent elections in Windsor).
"It's unwise to treat the economy as an afterthought"
Who said afterthought.. ?Nationalize Oil... Lower taxes.. help citizens prosper...
Mr. Haddad: Before you mentioned the economy in your post, you talked about social justice issues. The brief mention of the economy and the placement of said issue in your post indicates that your thinking pattern is to address economic issues as an afterthought and give prominence to social justice issues. My posts are like Windsor Star articles, in that you can't passively consume them.
So as an MP or MPP, you would strive to nationalize Canada's oil industry? Is that not an example of populist politics? Canada does not need another Jack Layton.
Robert -
Mr. Haddad is actively seeking the Liberal nomination. He sent out an email sometime ago, when campaigning for the engineering complex to go downtown, that he would block the Ambassador Bridge.
I will quote:
"From: edy4mp@hotmail.com
To: info@artcite.ca
Subject: RE:
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 09:42:50 -0500
...THE NEW SCHOOL IDEA IS A GO!!!
THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP!!!
I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE IT BEING BUILT IN OUR NEW DOWNTOWN!!!
It only goes to support our city.
It is falling apart, and we need a change in course.
This is something that everyone should get involved with.
I am tired of negative ideas and people saying no.
We need to look at broader ways and more diverse ways of thinking. That every part, Depends on each other. If we have one part of a city that is falling apart, our other areas are affected in ways we can only see today. WE have an unemployment rate of 16% and we are about to lose more jobs soon.
THE CITY NEEDS HELP!!! THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT MUST ACT TO HELP OUR CITY IMMEDIATELY!
Then We All can make a difference!
I am tired of a city that will not commit and tired of people being too scared to change...
I am tired, we are all tired...
Thats the problem, we are too scared to take action.
It is not our fault that our city faces such challenges.
Issues such as the change in course our current Conservative government is taking, IS DAMAGING OUR CITY AND COUNTRY. It is neoliberal economic policy's that are changing the economic environment, and not allowing for a People first politcal environment, it is relegating Windsor to the bottom of the economic food chain
Our students are hurt they aren't just tired. This Idea can help re-invent a city.
WE can change downtown, revolutionize it in a way that only such an idea can bring. It will demonstrate that Culture and Art are the way in which Society's have developed over time.
Our history tells us, that communication began with art. That Written language began with ART!
ART SAVES. It is as simple as that. BRING ART DOWNTOWN..
Ill bring art to Ottawa;)
If they wont listen, I start recording my voice next tuesday..
I know people wil.
If the Government does not Act, Students will move to Strike again, in the new year. And block the bridge"
"when campaigning for the engineering complex to go downtown, that he would block the Ambassador Bridge."
It was rhetoric...
And It had nothing to do with the engineering complex... It had to do with building a New ARTS Campus downtown, A School of Music and Art.
If you want to fix downtown Windsor, a good way is to bring a campus downtown. Bring Culture Downtown.
I have a Vision of Success for Windsor. Imagine walking the Streets downtown, Picture them full of life. See our youth playing music, making art... imagine the feeling of Culture.. Not guns Downtown.
The move to Block the Bridge was rhetoric.
The Strike was to get people to listen. You had a DWBIA, begging for an engineering building, and me yelling no. The Campus deserved that new building, and our downtown was not a good fit.
This was my Original Idea… And I quote…
November 27th, 2007
“Student will be demonstrating in support of The City of Windsor, and The University Campus. Students will be asking the Federal, and Provincial governments, to help our City, and University by heavily investing in our community.
1. Re-open the Capital Theatre as a Multi-purpose Arts Facility for the Campus and Community
2. Build a New full functioning Campus Downtown, to include the Arts/ School of Music programs, as well as, a new School of English, and School of Law.
3. Invest in refurbishing existing infrastructure on Campus
4. Create an environment that is conductive to Higher learning”
As far as I know, everyone is in favor of my Idea. Mostly for a Arts Campus, with a new Law School Downtown. Why would I strike is they are in support?
Again, I believe this will help our downtown and fix it!
End Quote..
…
Mr Scherer,
Yes I believe in populist politics, but I believe that we need a civil rights leader to emerge out of Canada, and help fix the problems that people face around the world. We have enough MP’s and MPP’s bickering and fighting about the economy.
I think it would be a nice breath of fresh air, to see a civil right oriented politician.
I am not scared to express an opinion.
Nationalize oil, I have seen how it has benefited country’s around the world.. no doubt about that.
Look at Bolivia…
But as MP, I will focus on creating world wide social change.
The liberal party believes in social justice, but this must be strengthened.
Our Country must focus on becoming a World wide leader, and help struggling democracy’s around the world prosper.
I am currently working on creating a meeting of Leaders from around the world, in Ottawa, to help draft a new constitution for Lebanon. Remove religion from politics.
I have spoken to the Chair of the Arabic Studies program at the University of Ottawa, as well as, President Gemayel of Lebanon about this issue.
I will strive to bring peace in the world..
Stop the wars for Oil….
And let freedom pour..
Edy
Keith: I am not a member of the Liberal Party. If I was, I would've been privy to the email you mentioned in your post.
Mr. Haddad: Your pursuits are admirable. That's my obligatory platitude for the day.
Was it not the Conservative government who used tax dollars to help Lebanese-Canadians flee Lebanon recently?
Don't think the senior levels of government are going to give the University of Windsor anymore tax dollars anytime soon. The new engineering facilities aren't even paid for yet. Furthermore, the new medical school isn't even paid for yet. Are parking rates not being increased to fund other University of Windsor capital projects?
From the CIA World Factbook: "In December 2005, Bolivians elected Movement Toward Socialism leader Evo MORALES president - by the widest margin of any leader since the restoration of civilian rule in 1982 - after he ran on a promise to change the country's traditional political class and empower the nation's poor majority. However, since taking office, his controversial strategies have exacerbated racial and economic tensions between the Amerindian populations of the Andean west and the non-indigenous communities of the eastern lowlands; a possible referendum on the new constitution is to be held in 2008." The political terms in Bolivia are five years. What is your opinion of this? Here are some facts about Bolivia's economy. "DEBT RELIEF from the G8-announced in 2005-has significantly reduced Bolivia's public sector debt burden...inflation reached double-digit levels in 2007 (12 percent)...in 2005, Bolivia received an estimated 582.9 million in economic aid." If Bolivia was truly self-sufficient, it wouldn't need that much aid. Here's a simplified breakdown of Bolivia's oil industry: Oil production: 41,570 bbl/day; Oil consumption: 31,500 bbl/day; Oil exports: 18,500 bbl/day; Oil IMPORTS: 8,600 bbl/day. If you perform the pertinent mathematical calculations, you'll find that Bolivia still needs to import 21 percent of its oil. Bolivia's natural gas sector is performing much better. Here's a troubling fact: Bolivians seem to be more literate than many Windsorites. How telling.
I can agree with you on one thing: Windsor must change. However, change in Windsor will not come through social justice. Change in Windsor will come through economic diversification, something you clearly have no interest in. I'm an arts major who realizes that my job prospects post-graduation are horrible. Realistically, my future is in teaching English, not writing trendy books.
I was not discussing Windsor in my post, but issues affecting not only our local community, but the world as a whole.
Change in Windsor will take Cooperation between all levels of government.
Windsor must diversify its economy, and reinvent its manufacturing sector. We must focus on the growing market of Green technologies. Our manufacturing sector can not be an “Auto industry only” Zone. Diversifying our economy through a “new green focused manufacturing” sector will not only create jobs, but help save our environment.
A strong local economy is dependent on being able to attract business to our city.
Hypothetically speaking, as a business, I would not invest in Windsor with a Crumbling downtown. Why would I want to bring my senior management to a city, that can’t even offer an enjoyable place to leisure and have fun?
We already know that Windsor has great tax incentives for business to invest.
Building a new campus downtown will help reinvent downtown, and help business prosper throughout the city. In Cambridge, the city went through a boom of sorts after it built its campus downtown. New construction was up, students were spending money, families were enjoying downtown. It had a trickle effect, that supported ever part of it’s city.
CBC did a wonderful special on this issue.
Here is a link to the video.. and please I apologize for how bad my voice sounds at the end… microphone was off.. I have a way better singing voice then that..
http://www.cbc.ca/video/popup.html?http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/8752/windsor/ondemand/video/2020-univ-111507.wmv
“Change in Windsor will come through economic diversification,”
Is that not exactly what I am saying? Isn’t building a new campus downtown diversification? .. I sure do think so.
To sum Bolivia in a few short lines in vary misleading. To understand the Bolivian transformation, you must first understand the decades of despair that the poor of Bolivia had undergone. I suggest you read (“teetering on the rim” Global restructuring, daily life, and the armed Retreat of the Bolivian State” by Lesley Gill
After the economic transformation of the mid-80’s in Bolivia, the state had sided with business, and relegated its citizens to poverty. Cocaine trafficking blew up, creating a huge black market.
Why was Bolivia so impoverished, was it not the Neoliberal transformation? What it not businesses and its government that impoverished the workforce? The ethnic tensions in Bolivia have a lot do with its history, and its unbalanced social makeup. Was there not tension in El Alto when its citizens would travel and see the opulent homes of the rich just miles away?
Was there no tension when, Bolivian citizens woke up to find, no food, no water, and watch government close its doors on miners who most vigorously opposed the economic transformation?
Was there no tension, when the government of Bolivia spent billions on its military, only to find that the top ranking members were controlling and trafficking the drugs?
Was it not the United States, and the CIA, that did not trust the Army to help stop the American war on drugs?
Was it not conservative regonomics that turned Bolivia into a waistland of despair?
................
The conservatives brought back Canadians from Lebanon, due to a war that broke out, in the middle of the summer. Hezzeballah, the same terrorist group that had threatened my life with death, were to blame.
My brother was in Lebanon, visiting his fiancé, now wife. He was stuck until he got out on an American War ship.
How did the conservatives help solve the political problems of Lebanon?
What I am suggesting in focusing on solving the root problems of issues. Lebanon is divided by ethnic, religious, and economic lines.
The Government has been in a deadlock for some time, and as a country within the Francophonie, and a democratic country that shares a common language, and democratic history with Canada.
Canada can show strong and much needed leadership, by helping create a constitution for Lebanon, and firmly take the role as the new moral light for the world to aspire
"...role as the new moral light for the world to aspire."
Therein lies the crux of your argument/position. Do you believe that Canadians should act as if they are morally-superior? Many Canadians already do. Essentially, you're saying that every fact I have presented is irrelevant because you want to end poverty.
"We already know that Windsor has great tax incentives for business to invest." Have you read any of the blogs posted on this site? Windsor isn't offering incentives for the downtown core, unless the phantom incentives offered by the city to the University of Windsor qualify as actual incentives. Why aren't businesses using the incentives you mentioned in your post?
The electorate is growing tired of politicians not focusing on domestic issues. Foreign policy initiatives are worthwhile, but distracting.
Green technologies will enable the masses to be lazy without feeling guilty. Better city planning will improve the environment. Yes, ScaleDown, I've converted.
I'm not trying to discourage you from being hopeful. May you experience success in all of your endeavors.
Thank You very Much, and I really enjoyed your Honest Debate!
edy
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